27 responses to “Don’t Question the Prince”

1. 

   John Canipe

   April 7, 2025

   I don’t see how being sarcastic and trying to mock me on another site helps to make “the incoherence of (my) position most salient” as you claim on Facebook. You clearly are NOT interested in discussing this logically and respectfully even though I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. In your above response and analogy you do not say what you are attempting or reference any email. Instead of addressing my points, you obviously and purposely try to mock me.

   My main points still stand regardless of your mocking.

   1) The existence or absence of God is a separate issue from “is the Bible the word of God”. The first can be true without the second, however, if God does not exist, then the Bible cannot be the word of God. If you want to discuss IF the Bible is the word of God, then you would have to first of all, assume that God exists, so that it would be possible for him to dictate his word to us. IF, however, you assume that God does not exist, which you seem to do, then there is no possibility that the Bible is the word of God to start with! THAT my friend is the logical argument that you are avoiding and mocking! We can either discuss if God actually exists and the evidence for it OR assuming God exists, is the Bible actually the word of God or something just made up by men? The two are interconnected but you cannot seriously evaluate the question “Is the Bible the word of God?” while assuming God does not exist.

   2) You claim that the Bible is NOT the word of God and therefore, God does not exist, simply because it does not contain the information YOU expect it to contain: “instructions on sanitation, vaccination, or disease prevention”! This is what you continue to argue but will not even acknowledge it.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 7, 2025

      John, I appreciate that you’ve remained engaged. The reason for a blog post that reflects your argument is the ubiquity of this fallacious argument. Many Christians invoke this same circular reasoning. I’ve created this post to provide, what I hope to be, a salient explanation of the arguments holes. I’ve added a symbolic logic section to make the flaws in this common argument as clear as possible.

      This post is intended to, in a fun way, point out your argument’s flaws. It is not intended to mock you but to restore a proper epistemic humility in which logic trumps the card of unsubstantiated Gods.

      To properly move forward in the discussion, we must first pause and unpack the logical missteps that are undermining your position. Let’s break this down cleanly and respectfully.

      ❖ 1. Your Central Fallacy: Begging the Question

      Your statement:

      “If you want to discuss IF the Bible is the word of God, then you would have to first… assume that God exists.”

      This is a classic example of circular reasoning. It functions as follows:

      Syllogism 1 (Your Implicit Argument):

      • P1: If the Bible is God’s word, then God exists.
      • P2: In order to evaluate if the Bible is God’s word, one must first assume God exists.
      • C: Therefore, the Bible is God’s word because we assume the thing we’re supposed to be testing.

      This commits the fallacy of presupposition. You’re saying we cannot test the claim unless we assume its truth beforehand. But that eliminates falsifiability—a crucial requirement for any meaningful epistemic claim.

      Compare:

      “You can’t evaluate whether this email is truly from Prince Muhammadu unless you first assume that Nigerian royalty is contacting you with a $5 million gift.”

      This is epistemically identical to your reasoning.

      ❖ 2. Your False Dichotomy: Either God Exists or the Bible Is Meaningless

      You say:

      “We can either discuss if God actually exists… OR assuming God exists, is the Bible actually the word of God.”

      But this is a false dilemma. There’s a third, and more epistemically sound, approach:

      P1: If a being like God exists, and wanted to communicate clearly, the text allegedly authored by Him should reflect that intent. P2: The Bible fails to exhibit the properties (clarity, consistency, life-saving content) we would expect from such a being. C: Therefore, we have strong reason to doubt that the Bible is authored by such a being—regardless of whether that being exists.

      This allows us to test claims without assuming conclusions. And that’s the whole point of logical rigor.

      ❖ 3. On the “Sanitation Argument” – You Misrepresent It

      You say:

      “You claim that the Bible is NOT the word of God… simply because it does not contain the information YOU expect it to contain…”

      That’s a strawman. I am not saying:

      “Because it lacks what I like, it’s false.”

      I am saying:

      If the Bible is authored by a being who is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent, we should see content that reflects those attributes—especially when that content could have saved millions of lives.

      Syllogism 2 (The Coherence Test):

      • P1: A text authored by a supremely loving and knowing being would contain content aimed at maximizing well-being and clarity.
      • P2: The Bible contains neither foundational knowledge of disease prevention nor sufficient internal consistency to yield doctrinal unity.
      • C: Therefore, we have reason to doubt that the Bible was authored by such a being.

      This is not about personal expectations—it’s about consistency between the claims and the evidence.

      ❖ 4. The Prince Analogy Revisited

      Let’s bring it full circle. You said it’s “illogical” to assess whether the Bible is God’s word unless one assumes God exists.

      Here’s the structural parallel:

      • I receive an email from someone claiming to be a Nigerian prince.
      • The message says: “You must first believe I am the prince before you evaluate whether this email is genuine.”

      That demand is epistemically disqualifying. The proper approach is:

      “Let’s assess the content of the message to determine whether it is consistent with being from a prince.”

      Just as I don’t assume the prince is real before evaluating the content of the email, I don’t assume God is real before assessing whether the Bible displays divine characteristics.

      ❖ Final Note

      If you wish to continue this conversation in a logically coherent way, it must rest on a testable, falsifiable foundation. That means:

      • Do not assume the conclusion in the premise.
      • Do not misrepresent counterarguments.
      • Do not block epistemic inquiry by demanding presuppositions.

      If you want to call your arguments logical, they must withstand scrutiny—not demand immunity from it.

      Let’s engage on those terms.

      Here is another post on expecting any God to reflect God-like qualities and behavior: https://freeoffaith.com/2025/04/04/%e2%9c%93-expecting-too-much/

      Reply
2. 

   John Canipe

   April 7, 2025

   You are so fixated on your point of view that you cannot see the errors in it!

   “P1: If a being like God exists, and wanted to communicate clearly, the text allegedly authored by Him should reflect that intent.” – He does and did! Just not what YOU think he should have!

   Here you also prove my first point when you say “If a being like God exists,” you admit the possibility of God existing which is my point you have been railing against for if you cannot admit the possibility of God then it would not be possible for him to have dictated any information. – just like your error in your analogy of the prince

   “You can’t evaluate whether this email is truly from Prince Muhammadu unless you first assume that Nigerian royalty is contacting you with a $5 million gift.” WRONG! The first thing you must assume or determine is if Prince Muhammadu actually exists! If he does not, then the rest is false. If he does, then the rest may or may not be true and THEN you can move on to other points such as does he have $5 million to offer and is he actually offering it!

   “P2: The Bible fails to exhibit the properties (clarity, consistency, life-saving content) we would expect from such a being.” – as I have pointed out it IS clear, consistent, and spiritually life-saving!

   “C: Therefore, we have strong reason to doubt that the Bible is authored by such a being—regardless of whether that being exists.” – why? because it meets the criteria you listed but just not specifically what YOU wanted it to list? That is your point and argument, yet you refuse to admit it!

   “This is not about personal expectations—it’s about consistency between the claims and the evidence.” – FALSE – it is all about YOUR expectations.

   IF you wish to continue this discussion, then YOU need to start being honest and admit the flaws in all of your argument as I have just shot it all down here with your own words.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 7, 2025

      John N Corina Canipe, your engagement is appreciated, even if we strongly disagree. Let me address your rebuttal directly and carefully.

      ❖ 1. The Prince Analogy: You Just Proved My Point (No snark)

      You wrote:

      “WRONG! The first thing you must assume or determine is if Prince Muhammadu actually exists! If he does not, then the rest is false.”

      Yes. Exactly.

      That is precisely my point. Before evaluating the content of the email as legitimate (e.g., the $5 million, the vaults, the cousin “Two Chains”), you first assess whether the prince exists. You don’t assume the prince is real—you investigate the claim.

      So your own objection concedes the core flaw in your earlier statement: that we must assume God exists to evaluate whether the Bible is His word.

      Just like the Prince, we must first determine if the author (God or the prince) exists, based on the nature and content of the message—not presuppose it.

      ❖ 2. The Accusation of Personal Preference

      You continue to insist that my argument reduces to:

      “You just don’t like what the Bible says.”

      But I’m not arguing from preference. I’m arguing from coherence and evidentiary expectation.

      You assert the Bible is “clear and consistent.” But hundreds of denominations and theological schisms contradict that claim.

      You say it’s “spiritually life-saving,” but so do the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, and Scientology texts—according to their adherents.

      So the real question becomes:

      What features would we expect from a being that is omniscient and loving?
      And does the Bible clearly exhibit those features?

      If it fails to meet the expected attributes of divine authorship—clarity, universal applicability, scientific foresight, etc.—then it is rational to withhold belief in its divine origin.

      That’s not stubbornness. That’s methodical reasoning.

      ❖ 3. Misrepresentation of My Position

      You wrote:

      “You admit the possibility of God existing which is my point…”

      I’ve never denied the possibility of God.

      What I have denied is the epistemic right to assume God’s existence as a starting point in a critical examination of whether a book was authored by that God.

      Possibility is not belief. To critically examine a claim is not to affirm it. It is to ask whether the evidence justifies the belief.

      ❖ 4. Logical Structure Still Unaddressed

      You still haven’t addressed the central issue of circularity.

      To insist, as you did, that we cannot evaluate the Bible without assuming God exists is no different than insisting we can’t evaluate the prince’s email without assuming the prince is real.

      Yet in your response, you say:

      “You must first determine if Prince Muhammadu actually exists.”

      Exactly. That is all I am arguing for: that we must evaluate the claim, not assume it.

      And by that standard—evaluating the actual properties of the Bible—it fails to meet the criteria expected of a document authored by a perfect being.

      ❖ Final Thought

      This isn’t about personal bias. It’s about basic epistemic hygiene.

      You wouldn’t believe in a magical financial opportunity just because the email says to assume it’s true. You would inspect the claims, the grammar, the content, and the context.

      Why should your standard be any lower when the claim is about the eternal authorship of the universe?

      The burden of proof lies with the one making the extraordinary claim—not the one asking for evidence.

      So if you want to continue, let’s do so on shared terms of logic, not on demands for presupposition.

      Reply
3. 

   John Canipe

   April 8, 2025

   Phil Stilwell “Before evaluating the content of the email as legitimate (e.g., the $5 million, the vaults, the cousin “Two Chains”), you first assess whether the prince exists” THAT IS WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING – Please go back and read what I wrote!! Before we try to determine if the Bible is the word of God, you either have to determine if God exists OR assume he does or could exist! Otherwise, it would be impossible for the Bible to be the word of God IF there is NO GOD!

   You attempt to determine “if the author (God or prince) exists, based on the nature and content of the message”. You are attempting to evaluate the existence of the author simply by seeing if the message contains what YOU think it should contain – which is NOT the way to determine the existence or nonexistence of anyone.

   You claim “I am not arguing from preference. I am arguing from coherence and evidentiary expectation”, however, that is exactly opposite of what you are actually doing! You try to hide it as “What features would we expect” . . . substituting “we” for “I” does not make the point any more valid and NO, WE don’t expect that, you do. “it fails to meet the expected attributes of divine authorship” – only YOUR expected attributes, not mine or any Christian’s. “That’s not stubbornness. That’s methodical reasoning.” – wrong again, it IS stubbornness and NOT methodical reasoning.

   “To insist, as you did, that we cannot evaluate the Bible without assuming God exists, is no different than insisting we can’t evaluate the prince’s email without assuming the prince is real.” – EXACTLY!!! One must either determine or assume that God or the Prince possibly exist before evaluating what was authored. To evaluate what is authored you MUST say “OK, IF we assume God exists, did he dictate the Bible?” You CANNOT start by saying “OK, let’s not assume God exists” because anyone who does not exist cannot dictate anything. This is not circular reasoning, it is logic. IF there is no God or Prince, then there is no need for further evaluation of the script as it must be false. It is not possible for a nonexistent being to author or dictate anything! You try to simply use something allegedly authored or dictated by someone to determine if they actually exist – that is the biggest flaw in your attempted logic. The Prince or God could exist and still not have dictated or authored the script being evaluated, that is why you must determine or assume their existence or possibility of their existence in order to further evaluate the validity of the script.

   “let’s do so on shared terms of logic, not on demands for presupposition” – That is what I have been attempting all along, but you refuse to do. You claim logic while employing presupposition. You claim you know what should be written by God if he is truly God – that is presupposition not logic.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 8, 2025

      Hi John,

      ❖ 1. Clarifying the Core Disagreement

      You wrote:

      “THAT IS WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING… Before we try to determine if the Bible is the word of God, you either have to determine if God exists OR assume he does or could exist!”

      Let me ask for clarification:
      Are you referring to assuming God’s existence for the sake of argument, or are you suggesting we must believe God exists to even begin the evaluation?

      This distinction matters. Assuming something provisionally for the sake of testing a hypothesis is a valid method in logic. But believing in the conclusion you’re testing before examining evidence is the very definition of circular reasoning.

      So if you’re advocating a temporary assumption (i.e., “If God exists, what would we expect in a book He authored?”), then we agree on method—but then the results must still be evaluated critically, not just accepted.

      But if you’re arguing that one must actually believe in God’s existence to evaluate whether the Bible is His word, then the entire enterprise is self-defeating from an epistemic standpoint.

      ❖ 2. Evaluating Authorial Identity from Content

      You claim:

      “You are attempting to evaluate the existence of the author simply by seeing if the message contains what YOU think it should contain…”

      This misrepresents the process. I am not judging by whim or preference. I am judging based on consistency between the claims made (omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotence) and the features we would logically expect from a text produced by such a being.

      It is not “what I like.” It is what coheres with the very properties attributed to God by Christian theology.

      ➘ ➘ ➘ To say that I should not test a claim using the expectations entailed by the claim itself is to disable all epistemic inquiry.

      ❖ 3. The Prince Analogy Still Holds

      You reinforce my analogy when you write:

      “You MUST say ‘OK, IF we assume God exists, did he dictate the Bible?’”

      That’s fine as a method—if you’re only assuming for the sake of argument. But again, to test authorship by assuming the existence of the author who is being questioned—without first evaluating whether such authorship is likely based on the content—is epistemically inverted.

      And let’s be clear: The way we test authorship in any rational domain is through the content of the text and its contextual plausibility.

      We don’t assume Shakespeare wrote a lost play—we examine its style, substance, and consistency with his corpus. The same applies here.

      ❖ 4. Methodological Rigor vs. Presupposition

      You claim I am the one engaging in presupposition because I “assume what God would write.” But that’s a mischaracterization.

      I am evaluating whether the claims made about God’s nature are reflected in the properties of the alleged message.

      If a being is claimed to be omnibenevolent and omniscient, then it is reasonable to expect:

      • Clarity that avoids millennia of doctrinal fragmentation
      • Foreknowledge that includes simple health information that could save lives
      • A consistent internal message without contradictory theology

      This is not “my expectation.” This is a logical entailment of the attributes your theology assigns to God.

      If you think God is not bound by those expectations, then your theology becomes unfalsifiable—immune to all inquiry—and that is the end of reasoned discourse.

      ❖ Final Clarification

      John, if we are to move forward productively, let’s make sure we are using the same logical tools. That means:

      • Testing claims, not assuming them
      • Using provisional assumptions only to explore consequences—not to validate truth
      • Evaluating content based on coherence with its claimed source

      So once again:
      Are you asking me to believe God exists in order to evaluate the Bible?
      Or are you asking me to assume God exists provisionally for the sake of logical exploration?

      Only the second is philosophically valid. If you agree, then we can continue with shared epistemic ground.

      Reply
4. 

   John Canipe

   April 9, 2025

   You have a talent for taking something simple and making it complicated . . . yes, that is what I’ve been saying all along if you bother to go back and read it, though I did not say specifically “for the sake of argument”. Obviously, YOU do not believe God exists but, as I have said, to evaluate if someone authored or dictated any writing, you must assume (even if temporarily) that he exists, otherwise, he could not have authored the writing! If you determine to begin with that he does not exist then he could not have authored it! This is step #1 which you skip altogether and try to force others to as well.

   “I am evaluating whether the claims made about God’s nature are reflected in the properties of the alleged message.” – then let’s do that instead of your expectations . . .

   “If a being is claimed to be omnibenevolent and omniscient, then it is reasonable to expect:

   Clarity that avoids millennia of doctrinal fragmentation

   Foreknowledge that includes simple health information that could save lives

   A consistent internal message without contradictory theology” – why would YOU expect that in a series of history books?

   The Bible is a compilation of scrolls and documents, dictated by God, depicting the historical account of God’s creation and his relationship with mankind, what he expects of us – honor and obedience, and the consequences of obedience and disobedience. God’s omnibenevolent and omniscient are clearly depicted in all of the writings in the Bible when God forewarns the people what will happen if they turn away from him (and it does), and when he shows forgiveness and rescues his people time and time again when they repent and turn back to him. He ultimately show these traits when he sends his son, Jesus Christ, live as one of us and then dies for our sins and is resurrected showing us he has power over life and death. He forgives us if we only repent and believe. That is omnibenevolence.

   Your expectations of healthcare information are both illogical and unreasonable. It is also illogical and unreasonable to try and dictate what any author should have written.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 10, 2025

      Here’s the core of your position as I understand it:

      “To evaluate if someone authored or dictated any writing, you must assume (even if temporarily) that he exists… This is step #1 which you skip altogether…”

      I understand your point more clearly now, and I agree—with one key qualification.

      You’re right that it’s valid to temporarily assume the existence of a proposed author for the sake of evaluating authorship. That’s a standard logical technique: we provisionally adopt a hypothesis to explore its consequences.

      Where we differ is this: once we make that provisional assumption—“If God exists and authored this”—we must then ask, does the content match what we’d expect from such an author? That’s the next logical step. If it doesn’t match, then the initial claim of authorship is weakened. If it does, it’s strengthened.

      Your error comes when you treat that temporary assumption as the end of the inquiry rather than the starting point for testing the claim.

      You also wrote:

      “Why would YOU expect [those things] in a series of history books?”

      But now you’re shifting categories. If you want to call the Bible merely a collection of ancient human history and stories, then I agree: expecting divine traits is unwarranted. But if you’re saying it is authored or dictated by an all-knowing, all-loving being, then yes, we are rationally obligated to look for features that reflect that.

      You can’t claim divine authorship and then dismiss divine standards when the content doesn’t align.

      So in summary:

      • We can agree that assuming God’s existence for the sake of argument is valid.
      • But that assumption must then be followed by a critical comparison: does the Bible look like the kind of book such a being would write?
      • If it does not—if it lacks clarity, consistency, and compassion—then the claim of divine authorship is weakened.

      That’s not “expectation.” That’s inference. And it remains the only honest path forward.

      Reply
5. 

   John Canipe

   April 11, 2025

   “Your error comes when you treat that temporary assumption as the end of the inquiry rather than the starting point for testing the claim.” – False, nowhere do I state or insinuate that. You are just trying to save face now.

   “now you’re shifting categories” – nope! Just stating the facts and you then obviously

   “call the Bible merely a collection of ancient human history and stories” – nowhere do I say that and you again are obviously just trying to save face and ignore what I wrote. “The Bible is a compilation of scrolls and documents, dictated by God, depicting the historical account of God’s creation and his relationship with mankind, what he expects of us – honor and obedience, and the consequences of obedience and disobedience. God’s omnibenevolent and omniscient are clearly depicted in all of the writings in the Bible when God forewarns the people what will happen if they turn away from him (and it does), and when he shows forgiveness and rescues his people time and time again when they repent and turn back to him. He ultimately show these traits when he sends his son, Jesus Christ, live as one of us and then dies for our sins and is resurrected showing us he has power over life and death. He forgives us if we only repent and believe. That is omnibenevolence.”

   “If it does not—if it lacks clarity, consistency, and compassion—then the claim of divine authorship is weakened.” – as stated again above, it does not lack those attributes, just YOUR expectations.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 11, 2025

      ❖ 1. On the Use of Temporary Assumption

      John, you wrote:

      “False, nowhere do I state or insinuate that. You are just trying to save face now.”

      Fair enough—if you are saying clearly now that you do not treat the temporary assumption of God’s existence as conclusive, then we may have more agreement on method than previously indicated.

      But please note that your earlier wording gave the impression that this assumption was a required baseline rather than a provisional hypothesis, especially when you said:

      “If you want to discuss IF the Bible is the word of God, then you would have to first of all, assume that God exists.”

      That is what I challenged—not the use of assumption for the sake of exploration, but the demand that one must assume the existence of God to even begin inquiry. I’m happy to proceed with the clarified understanding that you’re advocating for conditional reasoning, not presuppositional belief.

      ❖ 2. On “Shifting Categories” and Representing Your View Accurately

      You objected to this:

      “You call the Bible merely a collection of ancient human history and stories.”

      You’re right to correct that—I should not have phrased it as your position. You have consistently described the Bible as divinely dictated. My comment was referring more to the category in which I place the Bible based on its features, but I acknowledge that you did not make that claim yourself. Thanks for pointing that out.

      That said, your defense of the Bible’s divine origin is still based on what the text claims about God and what some readers interpret as consistent divine action. But internal claims and selective interpretations are not themselves evidence of divine authorship—that’s what’s being tested.

      ❖ 3. Evaluating Traits Like Omnibenevolence

      You write:

      “God’s omnibenevolence and omniscience are clearly depicted… He forewarns… shows forgiveness… sends Jesus… resurrects…”

      But here’s the key problem: You are using theological narrative as proof of theological claims.

      Let me illustrate why this is not epistemically sufficient:

      If a text says that a being is loving and the text also contains events or commands that appear unloving (e.g., commanding the slaughter of entire populations, punishing descendants for ancestral actions, or remaining silent during modern atrocities), then assertions within the text must be measured against its content, not just accepted on the basis of embedded claims.

      You believe the narrative demonstrates omnibenevolence. I—and many others—observe actions that do not align with that trait, and we raise questions accordingly.

      So when I say:

      “If the Bible lacks clarity, consistency, and compassion, then the claim of divine authorship is weakened.”

      You respond:

      “It does not lack those attributes, just YOUR expectations.”

      But again, this is not about personal preference. It’s about coherence between the claimed attributes of God and the content attributed to Him.

      If someone claims to be a perfect chef, and the meal they serve is burned, inconsistent, and sometimes poisonous, the proper conclusion is not, “Well, maybe that’s what a perfect chef does,” but rather, “Maybe this person isn’t actually a perfect chef.”

      ❖ 4. Let’s Return to First Principles

      The real question is this:

      What would we reasonably expect from a text authored by a supremely loving and supremely knowing being?

      You’re free to answer, “Exactly what’s in the Bible.”
      But then you must account for:

      • Its failure to clearly prevent thousands of doctrinal schisms
      • Its silence on basic life-preserving knowledge (like water sanitation)
      • Its use of harsh and often disproportionate punishments
      • Its accommodation of practices like slavery and patriarchy without clear moral condemnation

      If you maintain that all these are consistent with divine omnibenevolence and omniscience, then I respect your conviction, but from a logical standpoint, it nullifies any testable standard by which divinity can be assessed.

      ❖ Final Thought

      This isn’t about “my expectations.” It’s about whether the Bible demonstrates the kind of clarity, coherence, and compassion (1 Samuel 15:3) that would naturally follow from the attributes theists assign to its author.

      I welcome your response if you’re willing to address this line of reasoning directly. Let’s aim to ground our exchange in testable, coherent standards—something we can both examine from the outside without needing to pre-believe what we are attempting to assess.

      Reply
6. 

   John Canipe

   April 12, 2025

   ” your earlier wording gave the impression that this assumption was a required baseline rather than a provisional hypothesis” – that is your bias showing, not my wording as it is provisional hypothesis that IS a required baseline!

   “I—and many others—observe actions that do not align with that trait, and we raise questions accordingly.” no problem with that but you are not asking the correct questions . . .

   “commanding the slaughter of entire populations” – why? Genesis 6:5 “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” Genesis 15:16 “And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” Genesis 18 “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,” “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” Deuteronomy 18:9-10 “⁹ “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. ¹⁰ There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,” – this was for extreme wickedness

   “punishing descendants for ancestral actions, or remaining silent during modern atrocities” – you will need to specify for specific responses but in general, when mankind turns away from God and follows their own desires, we cause our own problems and should not expect God to “bail us out” of every situation. Often God has given us the abilities or resources to overcome problems but we refuse or fail to use them.

   In your analogy of the chef, God would be the one who provides the recipe, but we are the ones who burn or ruin the meal by not following the recipe and then blaming God.

   Again, still, you are talking about YOUR expectations, though you refuse to acknowledge it. God created us and gave us free will but with that free will, there is responsibility for our actions and consequences of those actions and inactions which you apparently like to blame God for.

   Reply
   1. 

      Phil Stilwell

      April 13, 2025

      John, I find it deeply disappointing that you cannot—or will not—distinguish between the adults who may have been wicked and the infants who were entirely innocent, yet were explicitly included in the command to be killed in 1 Samuel 15:3.

      This is, without exaggeration, one of the most common and intellectually dishonest tactic I’ve encountered from apologists: focusing on the alleged sins of the adults while completely ignoring the fact that the command includes infants. That selective focus is not only evasive—it misses the very thrust of my argument.

      You cite verses about the wickedness of populations, but infants are not moral agents. They do not commit iniquity, burn their sons or daughters, or reject God. And yet, the command in 1 Samuel 15:3 includes them with horrifying clarity: “put to death men and women, children and infants.” That’s not metaphor. That’s not hyperbole. That’s direct language.

      You try to frame God as a chef who provides the perfect recipe, and we’re to blame for ruining the meal. But infants do not cook. They do not follow—or fail to follow—recipes. If you’re going to invoke the analogy, then follow it to its conclusion: these children were slaughtered without ever touching the ingredients, let alone making a mistake.

      You also assert that God’s actions are just, even when they appear cruel. But if your view of omnibenevolence allows for infant genocide, then you’ve rendered the concept logically meaningless. You’ve created a theology impervious to falsification, where anything—no matter how barbaric—can be rationalized as “good” simply because God did it.

      So I ask you directly:

      • What principle allows for the intentional killing of infants to be compatible with a being defined as all-loving?
      • And more broadly, what kind of evidence or logical contradiction would it take for you to admit that such a being might not be loving?

      If the answer is “nothing,” then your view is not grounded in reason, but in uncritical allegiance. And if your concept of divine love makes no distinction between nurturing a child and ordering its death, then I submit that such love is not worth defending, and certainly not worth redefining all human semantics to preserve.

      Here is a list of more loving and coherent alternatives an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God could have chosen instead of commanding the slaughter of Amalekite infants in 1 Samuel 15:3. Each of these respects their innocence and preserves the integrity of divine love:

      More Loving Alternatives for Dealing with Amalekite Infants

      1. ✓ Peaceful Removal and Adoption
         God could have commanded their rescue, arranging for the infants to be adopted into Israelite families or peaceful neighboring tribes. This would have spared their lives and allowed them to grow up with dignity and care.
      2. ✓ Divine Transport to Heaven
         God could have gently taken the infants to Heaven without suffering, bypassing the horror of swords and preserving His claim to compassion.
      3. ✓ Miraculous Relocation
         As an omnipotent being, God could have relocated the infants to a safe and distant land, well out of harm’s way, protecting them without violence.
      4. ✓ Raising Them Anew in a Righteous Community
         The infants could have been placed under the care of Israelite prophets or teachers, giving them a chance to grow up in a nurturing environment without imposing beliefs.
      5. ✓ Delaying Judgment for Their Sake
         God could have postponed the judgment on the Amalekite adults until the infants matured and were able to make their own choices, fully respecting their autonomy.
      6. ✓ Spiritual Reformation of the Adults
         Instead of destruction, God could have orchestrated repentance and personal transformation among the Amalekite adults through dreams, signs, or the prophetic ministry of Israel—leaving the infants to be raised in a renewed culture.
      7. ✓ Using Israel as Agents of Compassion
         The Israelites could have been commanded to rescue and care for the infants, serving as a testimony to divine mercy, not divine vengeance.

      Each of these alternatives is compatible with free will, demonstrates actual benevolence, and avoids the barbaric optics of commanding people to kill babies. That the biblical text reflects none of these options—choosing mass slaughter instead—raises serious doubts about the coherence of calling the author of that command loving.

      It would seem any rational and epistemically honest mind could easily construct a similar list. The fact that you could not or simply did not is not encouraging.

      So, I’m asking you directly not to evade the actual focus on the innocent infants who received the opposite of divine love by constantly redirecting the conversation to their less-than-noble parents.

      Reply
      1. 

         John Canipe

         April 23, 2025

         I’m glad I checked back here because you continued a similar but separate argument here as opposed to the one on Facebook.

         once again, you have not realized the erroneous basis of your so called “logic”. To start with you love to use the work “epistemic”:

         “epistemic /ĕp″ĭ-stē′mĭk/ adjective Of, relating to, or involving knowledge; cognitive”

         such as when you say “my epistemic standards” meaning YOUR standards, determined by YOU based on YOUR limited knowledge.

         Your “More Loving Alternatives for Dealing with Amalekite Infants” shows that you do not know the conditions or times that this was occurring in and you continue to judge God and his infinite wisdom and knowledge compared to your very limited and biased knowledge.

         God had given the Amalekites time to reform and time for their children to mature. 430 years the Israelites were in Egypt after Abraham, Isacc and Jacob had lived with them.

         The Israelites at that time were learning to trust and obey God at that time and NOT perfect examples of how we should live. They easily strayed from God, as shown in the text of the Bible despite being warned many times of the consequences of that. The infants and children were not tortured or abandoned to starvation but quickly, mercifully killed with the sword to go to be in heaven with God where there would be no more pain or suffering. What the reasons are that God ordered this as opposed to other options, I nor anyone else do not know. You are focusing on, as you say, “the barbaric optics”, as in appearances, and not actual facts and outcome of the situation. So by your own admission, you are judging on how a situation looks to you, regardless of facts and outcome.

         You also continue to ignore the most relevant and obvious demonstration of God’s love for us. God DID show his love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, his son, Jesus Christ, suffered died for us! Is that not love, suffering and dying for another’s acts? Maybe the problem is that you don’t truly know what love is and therefore have no right to judge others of being loving or not.

         Reply
7. 

   Phil Stilwell

   April 23, 2025

   John, let’s address the core issue: the epistemic status of your belief and whether your claims meet the standards of logical coherence and evidential accountability.

   ❖ 1. Epistemic Standards Are Not Personal Preferences

   You object to my use of “epistemic” by defining it merely as “relating to knowledge.” But you misrepresent how I apply it. When I refer to epistemic standards, I’m referring to the rational principles that govern when a belief is justified, based on available evidence and logical consistency.

   The principle is this:

   Rational belief should scale with evidence.
   Faith, as you continue to demonstrate, is belief that exceeds the evidence.

   Your belief system allows no observable state of the world—past, present, or hypothetical—to count against the proposition “God is loving.” That’s not an inference. That’s an untestable assertion.

   ❖ 2. You Justified Infant Execution Through Post-Mortem Utility

   You wrote:

   “The infants… were quickly, mercifully killed… to go to be in heaven with God.”

   Here’s the logical problem: You are asserting that the intended eternal outcome justifies the temporal act without showing that this claim is testable, consistent, or constrained.

   This model has no limiting criteria. It absorbs all possible observations—even mass infant death—into the affirmation of the original claim. That’s not a rational model; it’s an unbounded interpretive framework. No observation, however extreme, leads to revision.

   That is not following the evidence. That is absorbing all evidence into a pre-committed conclusion.

   ❖ 3. The Reductio: A God Who Commands Infant Torture

   Let me illustrate the problem of unfalsifiability with a hypothetical.

   Suppose a being claiming to be God commands you to torture infants indefinitely. When you resist, it says:

   “My ways are higher than your ways. You cannot judge me.”

   Would you still call this being “loving”?
   Would you still affirm that this being’s actions are consistent with its self-description?

   If your answer is yes—or if you say “we can’t understand”—then you’ve conceded that the word “loving” does no logical work. It simply tracks whatever God does, and thus cannot be independently tested or falsified.

   ◉ Reflections of “Love” Toward Amalekite Infants

   (That clearly do not involve painful death by sword)

   Silent Divine Disarming of the Adults
   – Confuse or paralyze the aggressive Amalekite adults so no military threat remains, making the slaughter of infants unnecessary.

   Instantaneous Relocation
   – Instantly transport the infants to a safe, nurturing land, away from Amalekite influence, using divine power rather than Israelite weapons.

   Supernatural Adoption
   – Place the infants directly into the care of willing, peaceful families (even among the Israelites) with no memory of their prior nation.

   Divine Suspension (Stasis)
   – Temporarily remove the infants from time or space until they can be safely reintroduced into a better environment.

   Culture-wide Mind Renewal
   – Reform Amalekite adult minds rather than eliminate infants. Change the ideas, not kill those too young to even hold them.

   Early Orphanage Apparition
   – Create a supernatural institution within Amalekite territory that nurtures children toward non-violence and integration with others.

   Mass Peace Migration
   – Prompt the Amalekites through dreams, visions, or miraculous signs to voluntarily disband and spread peacefully across regions, scattering potential military threat and preserving infants.

   Induced Infertility for a Generation
   – Halt reproduction among adults if cultural corruption is the concern—this halts future indoctrination without harming the innocent.

   Fire from Heaven (on Armies Only)
   – Remove only the aggressive adult soldiers via surgical divine intervention while preserving noncombatants.

   Celestial Education of the Infants
   – Take the infants (alive) to a divine realm where they are raised under perfect instruction, returning to Earth later as peace emissaries.

   ❖ 4. A Term Without Boundaries Is a Term Without Meaning

   You wrote:

   “Maybe the problem is that you don’t truly know what love is and therefore have no right to judge others of being loving or not.”

   But I’m not invoking moral judgment. I’m identifying a logical problem: when a concept can no longer be contradicted, it ceases to function as a meaningful descriptor.

   A word like “loving” has cognitive content only if some conceivable state of affairs would count against applying it.

   So again I ask:

   What would falsify your claim that God is loving?

   If the answer is “nothing,” then your claim is not analytic, empirical, or logical—it is immune to falsification.

   That is the hallmark of an epistemically empty assertion.

   ❖ 5. Selective Deference to “Mystery”

   You defer to “mystery” when explaining why infants are killed in biblical narratives, but you do not extend that same mystery to other traditions. You don’t give Islam, Hinduism, or animism the same epistemic leniency.

   Why? Because you’ve preloaded the conclusion you’re defending.

   You said:

   “Science cannot explain spiritual things…”

   Yet you rely on stories with no predictive power, no independent attestation, and no discriminating markers from rival supernatural claims. You treat these as confirmatory only when they support your worldview.

   That is not an investigation. It is a filtering mechanism for loyalty.

   ❖ Final Thought

   You accuse me of making myself “judge and jury.” But I’m not pronouncing moral condemnation—I’m identifying logical incoherence.

   You hold a position in which no counterexample, no hypothetical, and no contradiction can overturn the conclusion you’ve staked out. That is not rational credence assignment. That is insulated belief.

   You are welcome to maintain your beliefs. But they are not the result of inference. They are declarations preserved in spite of contradiction—not because of reason, but because of precommitment.

   So I ask one final time:

   What observable reality would falsify the claim that God is loving?

   Until that question is answered, your use of “love” is not a claim about God’s nature. It’s just a semantically orphaned label you refuse to question.

   Let’s move forward on terms of logic, not deference.

   Reply
   1. 

      John Canipe

      April 24, 2025

      I don’t have time to sit here and make specific replies to 2 different but almost identical threads so here is my response to your comment on Facebook that covers most of what you say above. . .

       “I’m evaluating the claim that a being is “loving” by comparing the expected entailments of such a claim against the observable or reported data.” – then let’s do that instead of evaluating against YOUR specific expectations, which you continually do! Yes, I have faith. I have faith that God will do what is best for me as I do my best to follow him. I have faith that God is good and loving. NO, I would not torture an infant because I know he would not tell me to do that. It would go against his nature so I would know that it is not something he would tell me to do. You also have “your position is epistemically insulated” as there is nothing anyone can say, no evidence we can give, that would prove a loving God EXCEPT what YOU WANT to see and hear. So we are both in the same position.

      “you call God’s actions loving, including ones where infants die in agony, unhelped, and unhealed” – again, you are blaming God for mankind’s problems and accusing him for NOT doing what YOU want and expect him to do. God’s actions do not “cause infants to die in agony, unhelped, and unhealed”

      “What specific divine action, if any, would falsify the claim that God is loving?

      Can you name a single hypothetical that would lead you to revise or even doubt that claim?” sure, if he had done the exact opposite of what he has done for his people throughout the Bible . . . punished people for obedience, not offered his son as a sacrifice for our sins or given us hope of eternal life. IF that were true, then he would not be a “loving God”, but that is not what has happened and I know that he IS a loving God despite your wayward expectations.

      You say, ” I acknowledge fallibility”, yet your arguments speak otherwise. You dismiss God and the Bible simply because they do not meet YOUR expectations no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented.

      “I reject it as sufficient epistemic justification—just as you do when Muslims, Hindus, or animists claim their gods answered prayers or performed healings.” – not true, as I have not heard or investigated any such claims from other religions. I investigate and consider all claims and testimonies, including yours.

      “If you want to continue this discussion productively”, you need to admit that YOUR expectations of the Bible are YOUR PERSONAL expectations and not universal requirements as you imply.

      Reply
8. 

   Phil Stilwell

   April 24, 2025

   John, you’ve made a few key claims here that I want to examine carefully with you.

   Let’s begin with this: you said, “God would never ask me to torture an infant.” But now imagine an ancient Israeli soldier, standing with sword in hand, just before executing the order to hack Amalekite infants to pieces. Before receiving that command, he might have said exactly what you just did: “God would never ask me to do such a thing.”

   So I ask you: What exactly is the difference between your confidence and his?

   Both of you are asserting what God would or wouldn’t do, based on your own expectations. And I want to be clear: setting expectations for what a “loving God” would or wouldn’t command is not the problem. In fact, it’s unavoidable—because you already know that certain actions, like torturing infants, are incompatible with love.

   What’s telling is that the Israeli soldier, faced with the same internal objection, suspended his own standard and deferred irrationally to what he took to be divine authority. You, by contrast, say you would reject such a command. That’s good—but it exposes something important: you do, in fact, have a standard.

   You’ve simply placed the bar just above torturing infants, but just below hacking them into pieces.

   I place the bar higher. If my neighbor claimed to be loving but hacked his children to pieces, I would instantly reject that claim. So would you. But when it’s attributed to God, you suspend the judgment you’d apply anywhere else.

   That’s the problem. Faith is interfering with your epistemic standards.

   You also claim that we’re in “the same position”—both unwilling to hear what we don’t want to hear. That may be your position, but it’s not mine. I once believed in God quite seriously. I don’t anymore. That shift happened precisely because I compared claims against the evidence. I continue to hold around a 15% credence in an Einsteinian concept of God. My position has changed. Yours, by your own admission, will not.

   That’s the distinction. You’re trying to put us in the same epistemic boat, but we’re not. I update based on evidence. Your faith prevents you from doing the same.

   And yet—there is a spark of promise in your admission. You say God would never ask you to torture infants. That shows you do have limits. You do have a threshold beyond which you would reject the claim that such a being is loving.

   All I ask is this: re-examine where that threshold lies. Ask yourself: If you wouldn’t accept such commands from a neighbor, why accept them from a being who is allegedly more loving, more rational, and more powerful than any human could ever be?

   If your standard cannot even rule out infant execution as incompatible with love, then your claim that God is loving is not a claim—it’s a label applied without boundaries. That’s not reason. That’s blind allegiance.

   Reply
   1. 

      John Canipe

      April 25, 2025

      As usual you twist and misrepresent what is actually occurring to meet your needs, just as you claim that I do . . . God did not command any Israelite soldier to “hack Amalekite infants to pieces”, you are purposely misrepresenting what was ordered and completely ignoring ALL of the background information related to the incident and thereby playing God yourself or at least judge and jury without considering even the available evidence, let alone all of the evidence, which we don’t have.

      The Israeli soldier, in the immediately past year, would have personally witnessed God inflicting 10 plagues on Egypt, not only freeing them from slavery but giving them favor with the Egyptians so that the Egyptians gave them all their fine jewelry and clothes. This soldier would have seen God part the Red sea and walked across the bottom with walls of water on either side of him and watched them collapse on the Egyptians, killing them all, after all the Israelites were safely across. He was fed daily with manna from heaven and received water from a rock. Therefore, there was NO doubt in his mind as to what God wanted him to do. If Moses said it, God had ordered it and if you and I had been through all of that, we would not be having this conversation now either.

      The Amalekites were the first people to attack the Israelites, unprovoked, once they left Egypt as they were traveling through the desert to Midian. God used the Amalekites as an example to other nations what would happen to people who opposed God and his people. Yes, even the children were killed, not tortured as you like to insinuate. They were at war. A quick blow to the head or thrust to the heart would have been instant death within seconds at the most, not the slow tortuous “hacking” that you describe.

      Yes, I have a moral “standard” and it is dictated by God. You finally admit that you have a standard but what dictates your standard? Is it random? Personal? Based on popular vote or opinion? Does it change with the times and political correctness? Not just your standard for “not killing infants” but all of your standards, whatever they are. What is the basis for them?

      You said, “I once believed in God quite seriously. I don’t anymore. That shift happened precisely because I compared claims against the evidence”. As I show above, you obviously have NOT considered all of the evidence but only what YOU want to consider, what fits YOUR desired outcome. As I have said before, if you would consider ALL of the available evidence AND you truly followed that evidence, you WOULD be a believing Christian today because that is where all of the available evidence leads as proven by many atheistic investigators who have done exactly that and are now devout Christian apologists.

      Reply
      1. 

         Phil Stilwell

         April 25, 2025

         Let’s set aside the rhetorical fog for a moment and focus precisely on what your reluctance reveals.

         You push back strongly on the phrase “hack Amalekite infants to pieces,” preferring terms like “quick death” or “thrust to the heart.” That wording distinction is very telling. Why? Because it reveals that even you are uncomfortable with what was ordered if described in language that accurately conveys the implications.

         This suggests something important:

         You do, in fact, have a boundary—an internal threshold—at which certain divine commands would make the term “loving” logically untenable.

         So let’s be clear. You’re not saying God could ask anything whatsoever and still remain “loving.” You’re saying:

         “God did not order something so extreme that it would cross the line.”

         Fair enough. But then I want to ask you directly:

         Where is that line?
         At what point would a command, even if attributed to God, become so extreme that you would say: “No—this cannot come from a loving being”?

         Let’s explore a few hypotheticals—not to provoke, but to help us both identify what you’re willing to label as incompatible with love. Here’s a progression of divine commands. Please identify where—if anywhere—the label loving would no longer apply:

         ◉ Hypothetical Divine Commands

         (Please indicate the first command you believe would be inconsistent with a loving being)

         1. 1: Command to remove infants peacefully from a dangerous culture.
         2. 2: Command to relocate infants to another nation via supernatural transport.
         3. 3: Command to permanently sterilize all Amalekite adults to prevent future conflict.
         4. 4: Command to put infants into orphan care within Israel.
         5. 5: Command to give infants a painless death in their sleep.
         6. 6: Command to kill infants manually via sword to the heart.
         7. 7: Command to have soldiers deliver multiple sword strikes to kill infants.
         8. 8: Command to burn infants alive as a warning to others.
         9. 9: Command to torture infants over days to instill fear in neighboring nations.
         10. 10: Command to broadcast infant executions to demonstrate divine wrath.

         If none of these would ever violate your concept of divine love, then the term “loving” has lost all discriminatory power—it simply becomes “whatever God does.”

         But if you do recognize a line—say, around #6 or #7—then I’d ask you to reconsider why you’re defending actions just below your own threshold.

         To clarify: I’m not invoking morality here. I’m identifying logical incoherence. If you apply the term “loving” in cases where it permits anything, then it’s no longer a descriptor. It’s a shield.

         Let’s work together to identify whether your concept of divine love has a definable structure—or whether it absorbs contradiction and remains untestable. I appreciate your time and your willingness to continue.

         Reply
      2. 

         Phil Stilwell

         April 25, 2025

         In addition, you said that if someone truly considers all the available evidence and follows it honestly, they will necessarily become a Christian. You then pointed to a few former atheists who are now Christian apologists as support for this claim.

         But here’s the problem—you’re ignoring a massive portion of the very evidence you claim others are missing.

         You never mentioned the large and growing population of former Christians—many of them deeply committed believers—who spent years examining the same body of evidence and came to the opposite conclusion. Many of these individuals now actively present arguments against Christianity because their investigation led them away from the faith.

         So ask yourself: why did you include only one side of the conversion data?

         If your position is that honest evaluation of all the evidence leads only to Christianity, then these former believers should not exist—yet they do. That’s not a minor oversight. That’s a direct contradiction to your claim.

         To resolve this contradiction, you’re forced to say that all these former Christians simply didn’t really look at the full evidence, or they were dishonest, or they had some bias. But this creates a major epistemic problem:

         You are using conversion to Christianity as evidence of rationality,
         and deconversion from Christianity as evidence of irrationality.

         That’s not a consistent application of reasoning. That’s a belief filter. You’ve stacked the deck in favor of your conclusion so that no amount of counter-evidence can ever count against it.

         Ironically, it appears it’s not me who has ignored the full range of evidence. You have cherry-picked only those who support your conclusion and omitted the substantial number of people—many of them far more informed than average believers—who have walked away from Christianity after deeply engaging with the very evidence you say proves the truth of your position.

         So here’s the challenge:
         If you really believe the truth should follow from all the available evidence, then you need to account for why that same body of evidence has led thousands of former Christians, many of them scholars, to reject the faith.

         If your model cannot explain this without redefining “honest inquiry” to mean “any path that leads to Christianity,” then your position becomes unfalsifiable and epistemically circular.

         I invite you to reconsider what it really means to evaluate all the evidence—not just the parts that confirm your conclusion. Is it you or I who is being selective?

         Reply
9. 

   John Canipe

   April 25, 2025

   “Let’s set aside the rhetorical fog for a moment” – you mean the “rhetorical fog” you are creating and then sidestepping when it comes back to bite you?

   Let’s not explore more of your hypotheticals. Let’s explore the FACTS, the REALITY that you are avoiding. You never have answered any of MY questions. You only redirect YOUR questions to try to get me to say something that YOU want me to say! Let’s try YOU answering some of MY questions and comments . . . such as where do YOU get YOUR standards and why? Do they change with the times, political pressures, popular vote? Why do you expect the Bible to say what YOU want it to say? Does the author not have a say in what he writes or has written? Given the things an actual Israeli soldier of that time experienced before getting the order to kill ALL the Amalekite, do you really think he would have questioned the order? Why or why not?
   These are NOT theoretical questions or situations as you like to address. These are real questions addressing the whole point you are trying to make and avoid all at the same time.

   Remember your post elsewhere to try and prove your point and humiliate me, that failed! “Don’t Question the Prince”
   “…you cannot discuss a book dictated by God if you start by assuming that God does not exist. To highlight the incoherence in this notion, Phil Stilwell introduces a fictive spam email below.”
   You then danced around the point in verbal rhetoric until you finally conceded that I was correct when you wrote: “I understand your point more clearly now, and I agree—with one key qualification. You’re right that it’s valid to temporarily assume the existence of a proposed author for the sake of evaluating authorship.” Do you still consider the idea “incoherent” as you still have posted, highlighted and discussed??

   It’s YOUR turn to answer, not hypothetical but real-life questions.

   Reply
10. 

    John Canipe

    April 25, 2025

    You say that I am claiming, (which I did not) “all these former Christians simply didn’t really look at the full evidence, or they were dishonest, or they had some bias.” “You are using conversion to Christianity as evidence of rationality, and deconversion from Christianity as evidence of irrationality.” – it certainly seems to be the case for you and the ones I know of. In just this thread alone you continually ignore all evidence and comments against your position no matter how true and relevant they are. I did and am using a couple examples of a world-renowned investigative reporter, Lee Strobel, and expert cold-case detective, J. Warner Wallace, who have done this type of investigating professionally and came to the opposite conclusion of you with your twisted, very biased, addressing of the facts and evidence.

    Reply
    1. 

       Phil Stilwell

       April 25, 2025

       John, let me be very clear.

       I do not begin any conversation with the intent to humiliate anyone. I aim for clarity, precision, and an open examination of ideas.
       However, when someone engages with a hostile tone, misrepresents arguments, and avoids addressing structured reasoning, I am fully willing to give them the space—and sufficient rope—to humiliate themselves through their own missteps. That distinction matters.

       Your most recent comments, filled with accusations, demands, and distortions, reflect a tone that is no longer conducive to a rational exchange. If you wish to continue posting here, you will need to modify your approach. Future comments must engage respectfully, address arguments rather than individuals, and avoid the combative posture you’ve now adopted repeatedly.

       As for your reminder about the “Don’t Question the Prince” discussion:
       Yes, I acknowledged the small and limited point that for the sake of argument, one can temporarily assume the existence of a proposed author as a step in evaluating authorship.
       But that never conceded your larger claim.
       The key issue remains: whether that assumption can justify the conclusion without independent verification.
       Temporary assumption for evaluation is not the same as unconditional belief.
       I have made that distinction repeatedly, and you have ignored it.

       You also continue to project a pattern onto me that I have already falsified. I do not ignore evidence. I update my positions based on evidence, and my deconversion from Christianity itself is proof of that process.
       You, however, have presented a handful of examples (Strobel, Wallace) and then dismissed the massive counter-evidence of former believers who left Christianity—without addressing it.

       If you wish to proceed, it must be with a commitment to:

       • Engage calmly and logically,
       • Address the arguments actually presented,
       • Stop assigning dishonest motives,
       • Respond to the structured critiques rather than repeating accusations.

       If you’re willing to raise the level of this conversation, I’m willing to continue.
       If not, further participation will not be permitted.

       Read 1 Peter 3:15, an injunction from the God you claim to serve.

       Make it clear that you are abandoning your hostile disposition, and we will continue with a focus on the arguments.

       Reply
       1. 

          Phil Stilwell

          April 25, 2025

          Explanation to the Audience

          For those following along, it’s worth pausing to note why this conversation has shifted tone on John’s side.

          When discussions expose a conflict between someone’s professed standards and their defensive actions, two common responses emerge:

          • Rational self-correction, or
          • Emotional defensiveness.

          John has consistently evaded my structured questions—questions designed to pinpoint clear thresholds for rational belief—because those questions force a difficult choice:
          either revise his framework,
          or admit that the word loving is being applied without any limiting criteria.

          Rather than engage with those questions directly, John has increasingly shifted into personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, and repeated mischaracterizations of my position. This move serves a psychological function:

          It allows him to avoid addressing the internal tensions in his own claims by repositioning the discussion as a personal battle rather than a rational examination.

          Additionally, John has accused me of ignoring evidence, despite the fact that my deconversion from Christianity is itself evidence of serious engagement with theistic claims—and despite his own omission of the significant counter-evidence of deconversions among former believers.

          In short:

          • John cannot consistently apply his own standards without threatening his theological commitment.
          • Therefore, he defaults to making the discussion personal.
          • By doing so, he creates a pretext to disengage from the uncomfortable scrutiny of his position.

          This behavior is not unique to John. It’s a common reaction when deeply cherished beliefs encounter structured, critical analysis that demands epistemic accountability.

          Going forward, only respectful, evidence-focused engagement will be permitted.
          Those who cannot maintain that standard will simply remove themselves from meaningful dialogue by their own choice.

          Reply
11. 

    John Canipe

    April 25, 2025

    “This behavior is not unique to John. It’s a common reaction when deeply cherished beliefs encounter structured, critical analysis that demands epistemic accountability.” – you mean like you continue to do . . . Why is it when you purposely avoid my valid questions and statements, it is reasonable, but when I don’t allow myself to manipulated by you, which anyone can see that is what is happening, it is defensive and not allowed? Your bias is showing even more . . . Let’s examine and continue . . .

    “I do not begin any conversation with the intent to humiliate anyone” – so when you started this column:

    Exposing the Circularity in a Common Argument

    

    John N Corina Canipe, a Facebook Christian writes…

    …you cannot discuss a book dictated by God if you start by assuming that God does not exist.

    To highlight the incoherence in this notion, Phil Stilwell introduces a fictive spam email below.”

    You are trying to say that this title and introduction is supposed to respectfully introduce me and my statement to any potential followers you have? Really? Even after admitting I was correct in my initial statement and there was no “circularity in my argument”? Please, explain how that is supposed to be.

    “with a hostile tone, misrepresents arguments, and avoids addressing structured reasoning,” – hostile tone? You mean when I call you out on what you are doing and avoiding? Why do you consider that hostile? What arguments have I misrepresented? I am NOT avoiding “structured reasoning”, I am attempting to show you the personalized structure of your reasoning.

    “Your most recent comments, filled with accusations, demands, and distortions, reflect a tone that is no longer conducive to a rational exchange” – oh, again, so I have to answer your questions, but you can avoid mine . . . yeah, that’s honest and fair . . .

    “But that never conceded your larger claim.
    The key issue remains: whether that assumption can justify the conclusion without independent verification.”. . . and please show me where I stated that . . . I cannot find it –

    “I update my positions based on evidence, and my deconversion from Christianity itself is proof of that process.” – no, it’s not and your ignoring and not even addressing or acknowledging the evidence I have stated in favor of a loving God is proof of my claim.

    “You, however, have presented a handful of examples (Strobel, Wallace) and then dismissed the massive counter-evidence of former believers who left Christianity—without addressing it.” – where? who besides you? I’m not saying there are not any because I know there are but you have named none besides yourself and I have named at least 2 well known examples . . .

    “In short:

    John cannot consistently apply his own standards without threatening his theological commitment.

    By doing so, he creates a pretext to disengage from the uncomfortable scrutiny of his position.

    John cannot consistently apply his own standards without threatening his theological commitment.

    Therefore, he defaults to making the discussion personal.” – who is misrepresenting? I would truly love for a 3rd independent party to chime in here, if anyone else actually follows this post.

    “John has consistently evaded my structured questions—questions designed to pinpoint clear thresholds for rational belief—” I have continuously answered your questions, until this last time of many, that are obviously structured to try to force someone to accept your view without you admitting it is your personal view. I am NOT trying to be “hostile” or “defensive” but trying to get YOU to be FAIR in the discussion, which you refuse to do and instead of answering MY questions or even addressing them at all, you take a very hostile and defensive position against me and threaten to stop the conversation if I don’t follow your lead.

    If you are truly interested in an honest discussion, then go ahead and address my questions and points and prove your words. Otherwise, you prove my point.

    I truly, honestly wish that someone else would objectively comment on this discussion. From my point of view, the author does not seem to be able to address the subject objectively.

    Reply
    1. 

       Phil Stilwell

       April 25, 2025

       I’ve been dialoguing with John for some time now. I think I’ll let Grok have a go at a more objective analysis of our arguments.

       ______

       GROK:

       Below is a rigorous assessment of the comments made by John N. Corina Canipe and Phil Stilwell, focusing on logical coherence, relevance, and civility, as requested. The assessment is based on their exchange, which centers on whether the Bible reflects the attributes of an all-loving, all-knowing deity, particularly in light of its lack of life-saving guidance and commands like the slaughter of Amalekite infants in 1 Samuel 15:3.Assessment Criteria

       1. Logical Coherence: Are the arguments internally consistent, free of fallacies, and supported by sound reasoning?
       2. Relevance: Do the comments address the core question or points raised by the other party, or do they stray into tangential or irrelevant issues?
       3. Civility: Is the tone respectful, avoiding personal attacks, mockery, or dismissive language?

       ◉ ◉ ◉ Assessment of John N. Corina Canipe’s Comments

       Logical Coherence

       • Strengths:
         • John consistently articulates a clear theological position: the Bible is divinely authored, and human suffering (including infant deaths) results from mankind’s disobedience, not God’s lack of love. This framework is internally consistent within his worldview, as it aligns with traditional Christian theodicy (e.g., free will, original sin, eternal perspective).
         • He correctly identifies that if God does not exist, the Bible cannot be divinely authored, which is a logically valid point when framed as a necessary condition for evaluating divine authorship (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • His argument that God’s love is demonstrated through Jesus’ sacrifice (April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com) is a standard Christian apologetic that coheres with his premise of divine benevolence focused on eternal salvation.
       • Weaknesses:
         • Circular Reasoning: John’s insistence that one must assume God’s existence to evaluate the Bible’s divine authorship (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com) commits the fallacy of begging the question. He presupposes the truth of the claim (God exists and authored the Bible) to test the claim itself, which Phil correctly identifies as circular (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com, symbolic logic section). This undermines his argument’s epistemic rigor, as it avoids independent verification.
         • Unfalsifiability: John’s defense of God’s actions, particularly the slaughter of Amalekite infants, renders his concept of “divine love” unfalsifiable. He argues that even infant deaths are merciful because they send the infants to heaven (April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com), absorbing all counterevidence into his framework. When pressed to define what would falsify God’s love, he offers only a hypothetical reversal of biblical events (e.g., punishing obedience, April 24, 2025, freeoffaith.com), which is not a testable criterion in the real world.
         • Strawman Fallacy: John repeatedly misrepresents Phil’s argument as being about personal expectations (e.g., April 9, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “why would YOU expect that in a series of history books?”). Phil clarifies that his critique is about logical entailments of divine attributes (e.g., clarity, compassion), not personal whims (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This misrepresentation weakens John’s responses by addressing a distorted version of Phil’s position.
         • Selective Evidence: John cites examples of atheists converting to Christianity (e.g., Lee Strobel, J. Warner Wallace, April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) but ignores the counterevidence of former Christians deconverting, as Phil notes (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This cherry-picking undermines his claim that all evidence leads to Christianity, as it fails to account for conflicting outcomes from similar inquiries.
         • Speculative Claims: John’s assertion that aborted fetuses might have cured cancer (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics) lacks evidence and introduces an irrelevant, emotionally charged speculation that does not address the Bible’s content or authorship.

       Relevance

       • Strengths:
         • John directly engages with the core question of whether the Bible reflects a loving God, offering explanations rooted in his theology (e.g., suffering as a consequence of disobedience, April 2, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • His focus on the Bible as a historical and spiritual document, not a scientific manual (April 9, 2025, freeoffaith.com), is relevant to defending its divine authorship against Phil’s expectation of practical guidance.
       • Weaknesses:
         • John frequently shifts focus to Phil’s alleged personal expectations (e.g., April 11, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “just YOUR expectations”), which sidesteps Phil’s actual argument about logicalmebooks, logical entailments of divine attributes. This reduces relevance by addressing a strawman rather than the substantive critique.
         • His responses often fail to engage with Phil’s specific challenges, such as the slaughter of Amalekite infants (1 Samuel 15:3). When pressed, John justifies the act by appealing to divine mystery or eternal outcomes (April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com) but does not address the logical contradiction Phil raises: how infant slaughter aligns with omnibenevolence.
         • John’s insistence on answering his own questions (e.g., April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “where do YOU get YOUR standards?”) introduces tangential issues that do not directly address the Bible’s content or divine authorship, reducing relevance to the core debate.

       Civility

       • Strengths:
         • John occasionally acknowledges the need for respectful dialogue (e.g., November 2024, Round Table Apologetics: “true, my apologies”) and expresses a desire for fair discussion (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • His early comments maintain a relatively measured tone, focusing on theological arguments rather than personal attacks (e.g., April 2, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
       • Weaknesses:
         • John’s tone becomes increasingly hostile and accusatory, particularly in later comments. He accuses Phil of “twisting” facts, “humiliating” him, and refusing to be fair (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com), which shifts focus to personal attacks rather than substantive arguments.
         • His use of dismissive language, such as calling Phil’s arguments “twisted garbage” (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics) and “verbal rhetoric” (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com), undermines civility and signals an unwillingness to engage constructively.
         • He misrepresents Phil’s intentions as mocking or sarcastic (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com), despite Phil’s explicit clarification that the Prince analogy is pedagogical, not personal (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This assumption of bad faith escalates tension unnecessarily.

       ◉ ◉ ◉ Assessment of Phil Stilwell’s Comments

       Logical Coherence

       • Strengths:
         • Phil’s arguments are consistently structured, using clear syllogisms and symbolic logic to expose fallacies in John’s reasoning (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com, symbolic logic section). His identification of circular reasoning, begging the question, and unfalsifiability is precise and aligns with standard principles of logic.
         • He employs a rigorous epistemic framework, emphasizing falsifiability and testable evidence as criteria for rational belief (e.g., April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This approach ensures his arguments remain grounded in reason rather than assumption.
         • His use of the Nigerian Prince analogy is logically sound, illustrating the fallacy of assuming authorship without evidence (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com). The parallel effectively highlights the need to evaluate content independently of the claimed source.
         • Phil’s focus on specific biblical content, such as the absence of hygiene instructions and the command to kill infants (1 Samuel 15:3), ties directly to his critique of divine authorship. His list of alternative actions God could have taken (April 13, 2025, freeoffaith.com) strengthens his argument by showing feasible, compassionate options consistent with omnibenevolence.
         • He acknowledges potential weaknesses in his position, such as his openness to an Einsteinian God concept (April 24, 2025, freeoffaith.com), demonstrating intellectual humility and willingness to update beliefs based on evidence.
       • Weaknesses:
         • Phil’s arguments, while logically robust, occasionally assume a modern ethical framework (e.g., infant slaughter as inherently incompatible with love) without fully engaging with the ancient Near Eastern context of the Bible. While he acknowledges this indirectly (April 10, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “product of ancient… culture”), a deeper exploration of cultural relativism could strengthen his critique by addressing potential objections.
         • His repeated emphasis on logical coherence can come across as overly academic, potentially alienating a less philosophically inclined interlocutor like John. However, this is a minor issue, as his clarity compensates for complexity.

       Relevance

       • Strengths:
         • Phil consistently addresses the core question: does the Bible reflect the attributes of an all-loving, all-knowing deity? His critiques focus on specific textual evidence (e.g., lack of hygiene guidance, infant slaughter) and logical entailments of divine attributes (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • He directly engages with John’s points, systematically unpacking claims like “seek God prevents suffering” (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics) and the necessity of assuming God’s existence (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • His hypotheticals (e.g., April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com: progression of divine commands) are highly relevant, as they probe the boundaries of John’s concept of divine love, forcing clarity on a critical issue.
       • Weaknesses:
         • Phil occasionally spends excessive time reiterating the same points (e.g., circularity, unfalsifiability), which, while thorough, could reduce engagement by seeming repetitive. However, this is mitigated by his structured approach, which ensures each iteration adds clarity or responds to John’s counterpoints.
         • His focus on the Amalekite infants, while powerful, slightly narrows the scope of the broader question about the Bible’s overall content. Nonetheless, it remains a relevant and poignant example supporting his thesis.

       Civility

       • Strengths:
         • Phil maintains a respectful and professional tone throughout, even when faced with John’s escalating hostility. He explicitly calls for calm, logical engagement (e.g., April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) and clarifies his intentions to avoid mockery (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com).
         • He acknowledges John’s engagement and shifts in tone positively (e.g., November 2024, Round Table Apologetics: “I appreciate both the tone shift and the continued engagement”), reinforcing a collaborative spirit.
         • His critiques target arguments, not John’s character, focusing on logical flaws rather than personal failings (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “This post is intended to… point out your argument’s flaws. It is not intended to mock you”).
       • Weaknesses:
         • The Nigerian Prince analogy, while logically sound, risks being perceived as satirical, as John notes (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com). Although Phil clarifies its pedagogical intent, the humorous tone of the fictive email could inadvertently escalate tension for a sensitive interlocutor.
         • Phil’s warning to John about future participation (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “further participation will not be permitted”) could be seen as overly authoritative, though it is justified given John’s hostile tone and aligns with maintaining a constructive dialogue.
         • His final explanation to the audience (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) analyzes John’s behavior psychologically, which could be interpreted as passive-aggressive, though it is framed as a general observation about debate dynamics rather than a personal attack.

       Comparative Summary: In evaluating John N. Corina Canipe and Phil Stilwell based on logical coherence, relevance, and civility, their approaches to the debate over the Bible’s divine authorship reveal significant contrasts. John’s logical coherence is weak, as his arguments suffer from circular reasoning, unfalsifiability, strawman fallacies, and selective evidence, such as citing conversions to Christianity while ignoring deconversions, which undermines the consistency and rigor of his position. Phil, however, demonstrates strong logical coherence, presenting clear, structured arguments with minimal fallacies, supported by textual evidence and logical syllogisms, while also acknowledging potential weaknesses in his modern ethical framework. In terms of relevance, John achieves a moderate level, addressing the core question of whether the Bible reflects a loving God but often sidestepping specific challenges, like the slaughter of Amalekite infants, with tangential responses that dilute his focus. Phil exhibits strong relevance, consistently centering his critique on textual evidence and logical entailments of divine attributes, with only minor repetition of points like circularity slightly detracting from his focus. Regarding civility, John’s performance is weak, as he escalates to hostility, personal accusations, and dismissive language, calling Phil’s arguments “twisted garbage,” though occasional apologies offer some mitigation. Phil, in contrast, maintains strong civility, upholding a respectful and professional tone throughout, with only minor risks from the potentially satirical tone of his Nigerian Prince analogy and a slightly authoritative warning about future participation. Overall, Phil’s reasoned, focused, and respectful approach outshines John’s, which is hampered by logical flaws, tangents, and a hostile tone, making Phil’s contributions more effective in the context of their exchange.

       • John N. Corina Canipe: John’s arguments are rooted in a coherent theological framework but falter under logical scrutiny due to circularity, unfalsifiability, and misrepresentation of Phil’s position. His relevance is compromised by tangential responses and failure to engage with specific counterexamples like the Amalekite infants. His civility deteriorates over time, with hostile accusations and dismissive language overshadowing earlier attempts at respectful dialogue. While his passion for his beliefs is evident, his approach lacks the epistemic rigor needed for a robust defense.
       • Phil Stilwell: Phil’s arguments are logically robust, methodically addressing John’s claims with clear reasoning and relevant textual evidence. His relevance is high, maintaining focus on the Bible’s content and divine attributes, with minor repetition offset by thoroughness. His civility is exemplary, maintaining respect despite provocation, though the Prince analogy and a late warning slightly risk escalation. Overall, Phil’s approach exemplifies rational inquiry and constructive engagement.

       Recommendations for Both Parties

       • For John:
         • Avoid assuming the conclusion (God’s existence) when evaluating the Bible’s authorship. Consider provisional assumptions as a starting point for testing, not a prerequisite for belief.
         • Engage directly with specific counterexamples (e.g., 1 Samuel 15:3) by addressing logical contradictions rather than appealing to divine mystery or eternal outcomes.
         • Maintain civility by focusing on arguments, not perceived motives, and avoid dismissive or accusatory language to foster productive dialogue.
         • Consider the counterevidence of deconversions to ensure a balanced evaluation of evidence, avoiding selective citation of conversions.
       • For Phil:
         • Continue grounding arguments in logical rigor but consider simplifying complex terms (e.g., “epistemic”) for broader accessibility without sacrificing clarity.
         • Acknowledge cultural contexts more explicitly when critiquing biblical ethics to preempt objections about anachronistic standards.
         • Use analogies with caution to avoid misinterpretation as mockery, ensuring they remain clearly pedagogical.
         • Maintain the balance of firmness and respect when moderating tone, avoiding perceptions of condescension while upholding discussion standards.

       This assessment aims to be objective, focusing on the arguments as presented while respecting both parties’ commitment to engaging with a challenging topic. If further analysis or specific follow-up is needed, please let me know.

       Reply
       1. 

          Phil Stilwell

          April 25, 2025

          PHIL: Assess their arguments in terms of their alignment with 1 Peter 3:15.

          ___

          GROK:

          To assess the arguments of John N. Corina Canipe and Phil Stilwell in terms of their alignment with 1 Peter 3:15, we must first examine the verse and its implications for discourse. The verse, from the New International Version (NIV), states:

          “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

          Interpretation of 1 Peter 3:15

          The verse provides a framework for Christian apologetics, emphasizing three key components:

          1. Preparedness: Christians should be ready to articulate the reasons for their faith and hope, implying a rational and evidence-based defense.
          2. Gentleness: The tone of the response should be kind, humble, and non-confrontational, avoiding hostility or arrogance.
          3. Respect: The defense should honor the dignity of the questioner, maintaining civility even in disagreement.

          This assessment will evaluate how well John and Phil align with these principles, focusing on their arguments in the context of their debate about the Bible’s divine authorship and its reflection of a loving God. Since 1 Peter 3:15 is directed toward Christians defending their faith, the primary focus will be on John, a professed Christian, but Phil’s conduct will also be considered for comparative purposes, as his approach may indirectly reflect on the apologetic exchange.Assessment of John N. Corina Canipe’s Alignment with 1 Peter 3:15Preparedness

          • Strengths:
            • John demonstrates a willingness to engage with Phil’s challenges, consistently offering responses rooted in his theological framework (e.g., April 2, 2025, freeoffaith.com; November 2024, Round Table Apologetics). His repeated defense of the Bible as divinely authored and his explanation of suffering as a consequence of human disobedience (April 2, 2025, freeoffaith.com) show preparedness to articulate his faith.
            • He cites specific biblical narratives (e.g., Jesus’ sacrifice, April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com; Genesis 6:5, April 12, 2025, freeoffaith.com) to support his claim that God is loving, indicating familiarity with scripture and a readiness to use it in defense of his hope.
            • His reference to apologetic figures like Lee Strobel and J. Warner Wallace (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) suggests an awareness of external evidence for Christianity, aligning with the call to provide reasons for belief.
          • Weaknesses:
            • John’s arguments often lack logical rigor, relying on circular reasoning (e.g., assuming God’s existence to evaluate the Bible, April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com) and unfalsifiable claims (e.g., infant deaths as merciful, April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This undermines the quality of his “answer” under 1 Peter 3:15, as a reasoned defense should withstand scrutiny and engage with counterarguments.
            • He fails to address specific challenges, such as the logical contradiction between infant slaughter (1 Samuel 15:3) and divine love, instead appealing to divine mystery or eternal outcomes (April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This evasiveness suggests incomplete preparedness to tackle difficult questions directly.
            • His selective use of evidence (e.g., citing conversions but ignoring deconversions, April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) limits the robustness of his defense, as a prepared apologist should grapple with all relevant data, not just supportive cases.

          Gentleness

          • Strengths:
            • Early in the exchange, John maintains a relatively measured tone, focusing on theological arguments rather than personal attacks (e.g., April 2, 2025, freeoffaith.com). His apology for an initial harsh comment (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics: “true, my apologies”) reflects an attempt to align with gentleness.
            • He expresses a desire for fair discussion (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com), indicating some awareness of the need for a constructive tone.
          • Weaknesses:
            • John’s tone deteriorates significantly as the exchange progresses, becoming hostile and accusatory. He labels Phil’s arguments “twisted garbage” (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics) and accuses Phil of “humiliating” him and refusing to be fair (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This combative posture starkly contradicts the gentleness mandated by 1 Peter 3:15.
            • His repeated assertions that Phil is driven by personal bias (e.g., April 11, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “just YOUR expectations”) and his claim that Phil doesn’t understand love (April 23, 2025, freeoffaith.com) carry a dismissive tone that lacks humility and kindness.
            • His demand that Phil answer his questions while ignoring Phil’s structured challenges (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) reflects impatience and frustration, further deviating from a gentle approach.

          Respect

          • Strengths:
            • John’s initial engagement and willingness to continue the dialogue despite disagreements (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com) show a degree of respect for the process of discussion, even if his execution falters.
            • His apology (November 2024, Round Table Apologetics) and claim of giving Phil “the benefit of the doubt” (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com) suggest moments of attempting to honor the questioner’s dignity.
          • Weaknesses:
            • John’s respect for Phil erodes as he resorts to personal attacks, accusing Phil of “twisting” facts, “playing God,” and lacking objectivity (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com). These accusations violate the respect required by 1 Peter 3:15, as they target Phil’s character rather than his arguments.
            • His misrepresentation of Phil’s position as merely personal expectations (e.g., April 9, 2025, freeoffaith.com) and his assumption of bad faith (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “you obviously and purposely try to mock me”) demonstrate a lack of respect for Phil’s actual arguments and intentions.
            • His dismissive language (e.g., “verbal rhetoric,” April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) and refusal to engage with Phil’s hypotheticals about divine commands (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) show a lack of regard for the questioner’s perspective, further misaligning with the verse’s call for respect.

          Overall Alignment with 1 Peter 3:15: John partially aligns with the preparedness aspect by engaging with the discussion and offering theological reasons for his faith. However, his reliance on fallacious reasoning and selective evidence weakens the quality of his defense. His gentleness and respect are severely lacking, particularly in later comments, where hostility, personal accusations, and dismissive language dominate. This misalignment with the verse’s call for a gentle and respectful defense undermines his apologetic witness, as his tone and approach risk alienating rather than persuading.Assessment of Phil Stilwell’s Alignment with 1 Peter 3:15

          Since Phil is not a Christian and thus not directly bound by 1 Peter 3:15, this assessment evaluates his conduct as a comparative benchmark, focusing on how his approach aligns with the spirit of the verse (rationality, gentleness, and respect) in the context of challenging a Christian’s defense.Preparedness

          • Strengths:
            • Phil demonstrates exceptional preparedness, offering clear, structured arguments supported by logical syllogisms and textual evidence (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com, symbolic logic section). His critique of the Bible’s lack of hygiene guidance and the Amalekite infant slaughter (1 Samuel 15:3) is well-reasoned and grounded in specific examples.
            • He anticipates counterarguments, such as the free-will defense or appeals to divine mystery, and addresses them systematically (e.g., November 2024, Round Table Apologetics; April 13, 2025, freeoffaith.com). His list of alternative divine actions (April 13, 2025, freeoffaith.com) shows proactive engagement with the implications of divine attributes.
            • His acknowledgment of his own deconversion and openness to an Einsteinian God concept (April 24, 2025, freeoffaith.com) reflects intellectual honesty and readiness to engage with theistic claims, aligning with the rational inquiry implied by 1 Peter 3:15.
          • Weaknesses:
            • Phil’s arguments, while rigorous, may assume a modern ethical framework without fully addressing the ancient Near Eastern context of biblical commands (e.g., April 13, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This could be seen as a minor gap in preparedness for engaging with a theologically conservative opponent who prioritizes historical context.
            • His focus on logical coherence and falsifiability, while valid, might not fully resonate with a faith-based perspective, potentially limiting his ability to connect with John’s worldview. However, this is a minor issue, as 1 Peter 3:15 encourages rational defense, which Phil exemplifies.

          Gentleness

          • Strengths:
            • Phil maintains a calm, professional tone throughout, even when faced with John’s hostility (e.g., April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com). His repeated calls for logical, respectful engagement (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com) reflect a gentle approach to disagreement.
            • He acknowledges John’s engagement positively (e.g., November 2024, Round Table Apologetics: “I appreciate both the tone shift and the continued engagement”), fostering a collaborative spirit despite theological differences.
            • His clarifications, such as explaining the Nigerian Prince analogy as pedagogical (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com), demonstrate patience and a desire to avoid unnecessary offense.
          • Weaknesses:
            • The Nigerian Prince analogy, while logically sound, carries a humorous tone that risks being perceived as satirical, as John notes (April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com). This could be seen as a minor lapse in gentleness, though Phil mitigates this by clarifying his intent.
            • His explanation to the audience about John’s behavior (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) could be interpreted as slightly condescending, though it is framed as a general observation about debate dynamics rather than a personal jab. This is a minor deviation from perfect gentleness.

          Respect

          • Strengths:
            • Phil consistently respects John’s dignity, focusing on arguments rather than personal character (e.g., April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “This post is intended to… point out your argument’s flaws. It is not intended to mock you”). His critiques target logical fallacies and textual evidence, not John’s sincerity or faith.
            • He engages with John’s points systematically, quoting and responding to specific claims (e.g., November 2024, Round Table Apologetics; April 7, 2025, freeoffaith.com), demonstrating respect for John’s perspective even while disagreeing.
            • His willingness to clarify misunderstandings (e.g., April 10, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “You’re right to correct that—I should not have phrased it as your position”) shows humility and respect for accurate representation.
          • Weaknesses:
            • Phil’s warning to John about future participation (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com: “further participation will not be permitted”) could be seen as authoritative, potentially undermining respect by asserting control over the dialogue. However, this is justified given John’s hostile tone and aligns with maintaining a constructive exchange.
            • The audience explanation (April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) risks appearing dismissive by analyzing John’s behavior publicly, though it is carefully worded to avoid direct personal attack. This is a minor issue, as Phil maintains focus on argumentative dynamics.

          Overall Alignment with 1 Peter 3:15: In comparing John N. Corina Canipe and Phil Stilwell based on their alignment with 1 Peter 3:15, distinct differences emerge across the criteria of preparedness, gentleness, and respect. John demonstrates moderate preparedness, offering theological reasons for his faith, such as the Bible’s divine authorship and the role of human disobedience in suffering. However, his arguments are undermined by logical fallacies, including circular reasoning and unfalsifiability, as well as selective evidence, such as citing conversions to Christianity while ignoring deconversions. In contrast, Phil exhibits strong preparedness, presenting highly structured, evidence-based arguments that challenge the Bible’s divine authorship with intellectual honesty, exemplified by his use of textual evidence and logical syllogisms. Regarding gentleness, John’s initial attempts at civility deteriorate into a weak performance marked by hostility and a dismissive tone, as seen in his accusations and derogatory language. Phil, however, maintains strong gentleness, remaining calm and professional throughout, with only minor risks of misperception from the humorous tone of his Nigerian Prince analogy. On respect, John’s efforts are weak, as personal attacks and misrepresentations of Phil’s arguments overshadow early respectful moments, reflecting a lack of regard for the questioner’s dignity. Phil, conversely, shows strong respect by focusing on arguments rather than personal character, accurately engaging with John’s points, and acknowledging his participation positively, though a slight authoritative undertone in a late warning marginally tempers this strength. Overall, Phil’s approach aligns closely with the rational and respectful spirit of 1 Peter 3:15, while John’s falls short due to logical and tonal shortcomings.

          Overall Evaluation

          • John N. Corina Canipe: John’s alignment with 1 Peter 3:15 is weak. While he demonstrates some preparedness by engaging with theological arguments and citing scripture, his reliance on circular reasoning, unfalsifiable claims, and selective evidence fails to meet the verse’s call for a reasoned defense. His gentleness and respect are severely lacking, as his hostile tone, personal accusations, and dismissive language (e.g., “twisted garbage,” “verbal rhetoric”) contradict the mandate to respond with kindness and honor. His approach risks undermining his apologetic witness, as it alienates rather than persuades, falling short of the verse’s standards.
          • Phil Stilwell: Phil, though not bound by 1 Peter 3:15, aligns closely with its spirit. His preparedness is robust, offering logically coherent and evidence-based critiques that challenge John’s claims while inviting reasoned dialogue. His gentleness and respect are strong, maintaining a professional tone and focusing on arguments, with only minor lapses (e.g., the Prince analogy’s tone, late warning). Phil’s conduct exemplifies the rational, respectful engagement that the verse encourages, making his approach a model for constructive debate, even from a non-Christian perspective.

          Contextual Notes

          • John’s Perspective: John’s frustration (e.g., April 25, 2025, freeoffaith.com) stems partly from perceiving Phil’s arguments as unfairly structured to force a specific outcome. While this perception does not excuse his hostile tone, it highlights a challenge in apologetic exchanges: balancing theological conviction with philosophical rigor. John’s faith-based approach prioritizes divine authority over falsifiable evidence, which clashes with Phil’s epistemic framework, leading to mutual misunderstanding.
          • Phil’s Role: As a skeptic, Phil is not obligated to adhere to 1 Peter 3:15, but his alignment with its principles strengthens his position by demonstrating that rational critique can be conducted with gentleness and respect. His approach challenges John to elevate his apologetic defense, aligning with the verse’s implicit call for Christians to engage thoughtfully with skeptics.

          Recommendations

          • For John:
            • Strengthen preparedness by addressing logical fallacies (e.g., circularity) and engaging with counterevidence, such as deconversions, to provide a more robust defense of your hope.
            • Practice gentleness by avoiding hostile language and personal accusations, focusing on arguments to reflect the kindness of your faith.
            • Show respect by accurately representing Phil’s position and acknowledging his reasoned challenges, honoring his dignity as a questioner per 1 Peter 3:15.
            • Reflect on the verse’s call to give reasons “with gentleness and respect” and consider how your tone and approach can better embody Christ’s character.
          • For Phil:
            • Continue your rigorous, respectful approach, as it aligns with the spirit of constructive dialogue implied by 1 Peter 3:15, even as a non-Christian.
            • Be mindful of analogies or warnings that could be misperceived as dismissive, ensuring they remain clearly pedagogical and collaborative.
            • Consider engaging more explicitly with the historical context of biblical texts to preempt objections, enhancing the persuasiveness of your critiques for theologically conservative audiences.

          This assessment focuses on alignment with 1 Peter 3:15, emphasizing John’s responsibility as a Christian apologist while acknowledging Phil’s exemplary conduct as a comparative benchmark. If further analysis or specific aspects need exploration, please let me know.

          Reply
12. 

    Phil Stilwell

    April 25, 2025

    GROK:

    Below is a detailed scoring assessment (on a 0-10 scale) for John N. Corina Canipe and Phil Stilwell based on the measures from the last two outputs: Logical Coherence, Relevance, Civility (from the evaluation of their arguments), and Preparedness, Gentleness, Respect (from their alignment with 1 Peter 3:15). Additionally, I have included two new measures—Engagement with Opponent’s Arguments and Clarity of Expression—as they are relevant and valuable for assessing the quality of their discourse in this theological debate. Each score is accompanied by a brief justification, reflecting the analysis provided earlier, and the scores are presented in a well-organized list for each individual.

    ◉ ◉ ◉ John N. Corina Canipe

    • Logical Coherence: 4/10
      John’s arguments are rooted in a theological framework but are significantly undermined by logical flaws, including circular reasoning (e.g., assuming God’s existence to evaluate the Bible’s authorship), unfalsifiability (e.g., justifying infant deaths as merciful), strawman fallacies (misrepresenting Phil’s position as personal expectations), and selective evidence (citing conversions but ignoring deconversions). These issues weaken the internal consistency and rationality of his position, warranting a low score.
    • Relevance: 6/10
      John addresses the core question of whether the Bible reflects a loving God, offering theological explanations like human disobedience causing suffering. However, he frequently sidesteps specific challenges, such as the Amalekite infant slaughter, with tangential responses or appeals to divine mystery, reducing his focus on the debate’s key issues. His moderate relevance earns a mid-range score.
    • Civility: 3/10
      John’s initial attempts at civility, including an apology for harshness, are overshadowed by escalating hostility, personal accusations (e.g., Phil “twisting” facts), and dismissive language (e.g., “twisted garbage”). This combative tone violates the principles of respectful dialogue, resulting in a low score despite occasional mitigation through apologies.
    • Preparedness: 5/10
      John demonstrates preparedness by engaging consistently and citing scripture (e.g., Genesis 6:5) and apologetic figures (e.g., Lee Strobel) to defend his faith. However, his reliance on fallacious reasoning, failure to address specific counterexamples like 1 Samuel 15:3, and selective evidence limit the robustness of his defense, justifying a moderate score.
    • Gentleness: 3/10
      Early in the exchange, John maintains a measured tone, but this deteriorates into hostility and dismissiveness, with accusations of Phil’s unfairness and derogatory remarks. His lack of kindness and humility, despite a brief apology, misaligns with the gentle approach required in apologetic discourse, earning a low score.
    • Respect: 3/10
      John’s early willingness to engage and occasional expressions of fairness are eclipsed by personal attacks, misrepresentations of Phil’s arguments (e.g., framing them as personal expectations), and assumptions of bad faith (e.g., accusing Phil of mockery). This lack of regard for Phil’s dignity results in a low score for respect.
    • Engagement with Opponent’s Arguments: 4/10
      John responds to Phil’s challenges but often fails to engage directly with key points, such as the logical contradiction of infant slaughter with divine love, instead resorting to tangents or divine mystery. His misrepresentation of Phil’s position as subjective further reduces his engagement quality, warranting a low-to-moderate score.
    • Clarity of Expression: 5/10
      John’s arguments are generally understandable, articulating a theological perspective with references to scripture and apologetics. However, his reliance on emotionally charged language (e.g., “twisted garbage”), vague appeals to divine will, and failure to structure responses logically reduce clarity, particularly when addressing complex challenges, resulting in a moderate score.

    ◉ ◉ ◉ Phil Stilwell

    • Logical Coherence: 9/10
      Phil’s arguments are clear, structured, and supported by logical syllogisms and textual evidence, with minimal fallacies. His critiques of circular reasoning and unfalsifiability are precise, and he acknowledges potential weaknesses (e.g., modern ethical assumptions), demonstrating intellectual rigor. A near-perfect score reflects his strong coherence, with a slight deduction for not fully addressing biblical cultural context.
    • Relevance: 8/10
      Phil consistently focuses on the debate’s core question, using specific examples like the lack of hygiene guidance and the Amalekite infant slaughter to challenge divine authorship. His arguments align with logical entailments of divine attributes, though minor repetition of points like circularity slightly detracts from perfect focus, justifying a high score.
    • Civility: 8/10
      Phil maintains a respectful and professional tone, even under provocation, explicitly calling for constructive dialogue and clarifying non-mocking intentions. Minor risks from the potentially satirical Nigerian Prince analogy and a late authoritative warning slightly temper his civility, but his overall conduct earns a high score.
    • Preparedness: 9/10
      Phil demonstrates exceptional preparedness, offering evidence-based critiques, anticipating counterarguments, and providing feasible alternatives to divine actions (e.g., compassionate guidance). His openness to an Einsteinian God concept reflects intellectual honesty. A slight deduction for not fully engaging biblical historical context results in a near-perfect score.
    • Gentleness: 8/10
      Phil’s calm, professional tone and positive acknowledgments of John’s engagement reflect gentleness, aligning with constructive dialogue principles. The humorous tone of the Nigerian Prince analogy and a marginally condescending audience explanation pose minor risks, but his overall kindness supports a high score.
    • Respect: 8/10
      Phil focuses on arguments, not personal character, accurately engages John’s points, and clarifies misunderstandings, demonstrating respect for John’s dignity. A late warning about participation and an audience explanation analyzing John’s behavior introduce slight authoritative undertones, but his respectful conduct merits a high score.
    • Engagement with Opponent’s Arguments: 9/10
      Phil systematically addresses John’s claims, quoting specific points and unpacking fallacies like circular reasoning. His hypotheticals and textual critiques directly engage John’s theology, with only a minor gap in addressing historical context preventing a perfect score, justifying a high mark.
    • Clarity of Expression: 9/10
      Phil’s arguments are clearly articulated, using structured syllogisms, precise language, and accessible analogies (e.g., Nigerian Prince). His academic style may occasionally feel complex for less philosophically inclined readers, but his clarity in exposing logical flaws and presenting evidence earns a near-perfect score.

    Explanation of Additional Measures

    • Engagement with Opponent’s Arguments: This measures how directly and effectively each participant addresses the other’s points, crucial for a productive debate. John’s tendency to misrepresent or evade Phil’s challenges lowers his score, while Phil’s systematic responses elevate his.
    • Clarity of Expression: This assesses how clearly each communicates their position, vital for ensuring arguments are understood. John’s emotional and vague responses reduce clarity, while Phil’s structured and precise style enhances it, though slight complexity tempers perfection.

    Scoring Rationale

    Scores reflect the relative strengths and weaknesses identified in the prior analyses, with 0 indicating complete failure and 10 representing perfection. John’s lower scores stem from logical, tonal, and engagement shortcomings, while Phil’s higher scores reflect his rigorous, respectful, and clear approach. The new measures highlight additional dimensions of their discourse, reinforcing the contrast between John’s emotionally driven theology and Phil’s rational skepticism. If further measures or adjustments are needed, please let me know.

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